Talk:Visionary (episode)
Episode talk page At the end of the episode, O'Brien predicts that Bashir will hit "20, outer ring" at darts with foreknowledge from the future. However, we know from that the genetically engineered Dr. Bashir was always intentionally throwing the dart games to O'Brien to conceal his genetic advantage. So doesn't that mean that Bashir was then aiming specifically at 20, outer ring, making O'Brien's prediction a self-fulfilling prophecy? :In this episode, when darts are first being introduced to Quark's, and apparently to Bashir too, Bashir is not throwing the games - he won ten in a row. Maybe later he started fooling OBrien. SwishyGarak 18:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC) :In this episode, Bashir closes his eyes before he throws the "20, outer ring" shot, so it's completely "random" chance. Izkata 19:49, January 6, 2011 (UTC) Romulan singularities Throughout this episode, when the character were wondering "What could be the source of this mysterious invisible singularity?", I kept saying "Cloaked Romulan warbird!" Wouldn't they (or at least O'Brien) already know about Romulans using artificial singularities to power their ships? And if so, why would they not immediately suspect the visiting Romulans? Gonk ([[User talk:Gonk|''Gonk!]]) 15:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC) :I agree; but this wiki doesn't have a section for questions about the episode, like others. MaGnUs 08:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Julian I'll let someone with an account and an editing history confirm and post this, but I believe that this is the first episode since that O'Brien has referred to Bashir as Julian. 02:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC) Removed Background Info I've removed an item in the Background that has been waiting for a citation for at least 6 months as far as I can tell. I'm placing it here. * In the original story for this episode, it was not going to be O'Brien getting shifted in time, it was going to be Odo. DhaliaUnsung 20:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC) I removed this, since it seems more like a coincidence than anything else. Also, completely slighting Naomi Wildman. * This episode shares some commonalities with the ''Star Trek: Voyager episode . Both show the destruction of the station/starship and both Miles O'Brien and Harry Kim die and are replaced by alternative versions of themselves. "Deadlock" was written by Brannon Braga a year after "Visionary." - Archduk3:talk 10:34, November 25, 2009 (UTC) :An interview with the story writer confirms it originally focused on Odo, and that it was his first pitch session, "Children of Time" being after several more unsuccessful pitch sessions (another incite request in Background). But it's more a personal site. Is it sufficient as a source? http://www.trekgirl.freeuk.com/authors/ethan-h-calk.htm Setacourse 20:47, December 10, 2009 (UTC) ::My inkling is to say that's OK, as long as the link is provided in the article.--31dot 21:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC) :::Thanks, 31dot. I found the writer's official site on archive.org, and an article he wrote describing his experience pitching Visionary confirms the Odo fact but not the other, so I'll use both sources. By the way, fun reads: Setacourse 21:17, December 10, 2009 (UTC) I removed "O'Brien falls unconscious when he returns from his first four jumps, but not from his final two jumps." He collapses because he's suffering pain from radiation poisoning. The first time he doesn't is because nearly all the radiation is out of his system. On Past O'Brien's last jump he does collapse from pain but gets back up because he knows he has to find out the cause of DS9's destruction. On Future O'Brien's jump to replace Past O'Brien, there's only a small amount of radiation in his tissues, so no collapse. Setacourse 05:10, December 11, 2009 (UTC) Disagree about quote removal Morder removed this because it's a scene. "You need to run a basilar arterial scan." "Why?" "Because if you don't, I'm gonna die in less than five hours." "Who told you that?" "You did! In the future!" "Oh. Well, who am I to argue with me?" : - O'Brien and Bashir I disagree that these 6 lines are too much. I'm aware of MA:QUOTE, and it *is* most of a scene, but a short scene. I think it's an important quote within the episode which gives an expanded feel of the temporal mechanics one. I won't fight like a banshee for it, but *shrug* I disagree and would like it back if there's support for it. Setacourse 23:41, December 10, 2009 (UTC) :I returned the last three lines, since that was the memorable bit.–Cleanse ( talk | ) 01:54, February 8, 2011 (UTC) Temporal Issues I have a qusetion about temporal theory in this episode. O'Brien changed the future by preventing the destruction of DS9. It makes no sense that he remembered the game with Julian or the Dabo. ThetaOrion 05:02, December 28, 2009 (UTC) :Yes, but it seems that the game happened before the events would have begun to take place leading to the destruction of the station. As such, he was still proceeding in a part of the future that wasn't affected much by his change in the timeline. It is a wee bit of a long shot for it to proceed exactly as before, but, as somebody once said (I think it was Tuvok), temporal paradoxes are usually implausible, but not impossible. -Mdettweiler 21:29, December 29, 2009 (UTC) Expanded I have expanded the article summary considerably though the background information could have a little more. If anyone has any citable bg info please do add it! -- TrekFan Open a channel 01:03, February 8, 2011 (UTC) :Since you asked so nicely, and since this is one of my favourite episodes, there you go. ;-)–Cleanse ( talk | ) 01:46, February 8, 2011 (UTC) Nice one, Cleanse! I complately forgot that I actually have Captains' Logs Supplemental - The Unauthorized Guide to the New Trek Voyages too! Durr! I'm stupid at times :P -- TrekFan Open a channel 10:28, February 8, 2011 (UTC) Performer info There seems to be disagreement about the presence of information about future Trek work of the guest cast of this episode. I think including this information sets a poor precedent in loading down the episode pages with information that should be on the performer's pages. We want people to read these articles, not have all the information in one place.--31dot 01:42, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :Episode pages are inevitably going to contain brief pieces of info that are available on other pages; that's just the way it is, so why should guest cast info be any different? Furthermore, I've written loads of Star Trek: Voyager episode articles with very similarly formatted guest cast info, yet no-one's ever objected to it up 'til now. I even submitted for FA nomination, which contains similar examples (see here), yet no-one said a word about it even then! As sulfur has admitted, nothing is said about it in the policies & guidelines, yet there is evidence to suggest that omitting the info would be against the Ps & Gs, as one criteria of FA status is that a given article be "complete as far as possible, but without adding any unnecessary rambling." Sulfur has already agreed that this example is not useless info (therefore, not "unnecessary rambling"), so I don't see what the problem is. --Defiant 02:01, March 2, 2011 (UTC) If he has changed his mind, I will drop it, but I took his response to you as sarcasm since he led off by saying "if someone wants to know what else that person has been in, they can damned well just click on the person's name." Episode articles should be complete- with information about the particular episode. It's my opinion that other work of the guest cast is not relevant to one episode- it's relevant to the performer. Where would it stop? Listing all the directing work the director of the episode did? The sound guys? As I said, though, I will drop it if there is no other support.--31dot 02:10, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :Well, it's the same system that tv.com uses. Do we really wanna be undermined by that site? --Defiant 02:13, March 2, 2011 (UTC) That's a different animal, from what I've seen. :) --31dot 02:18, March 2, 2011 (UTC) ::Sulfur said the information wasn't useless, but very clearly said that the information belonged on the performers pages. Saying "it isn't useless" doesn't change that. If it were useless information, it would not belong anywhere on Memory Alpha, including the performer pages. Why you have decided to ignore the body of sulfur's response to you and his talking about putting the information on performer pages is beyond me. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:22, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :As I've attempted to explain above, saying "it isn't useless" means it's not "unnecessary rambling." The FA criteria page does not state any other grounds for omitting the info. On the contrary, it firmly states that a given article be "complete as far as possible." Not only is such an omission of useful information therefore against common sense, it's also breaching one of our policies. --Defiant 02:51, March 2, 2011 (UTC) ::I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your interpretation. "Unnecessary rambling" is a relative term. Discussing the details of the M-5 multitronic unit would be unnecessary rambling in this article, even if the information is not considered useless and indeed is desired on the proper article. I for one find the information on performances entirely unrelated to this episode to be "unnecessary rambling" when stated on this article. It isn't when placed on the right article, but it is here. :::Personally, I don't see any harm in including the information on the episode page. Sure, someone can click on the actor's name but highlighting the fact in the episode article might make the reader aware to further performances that perhaps they didn't know about before. For example, in J.G. Hertzler appears as a Vulcan captain. The reader may not bother to click on the actor's name because for all they know it's just another guest actor. By highlighting the fact he went on to play other characters in DS9, they might think "Oh yeah, I didn't know that!" and click on his page to then learn more information. I don't see that this type of information harms a page. It's just more background info and should be included. --| TrekFan Open a channel 04:47, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :::On another note, you could also argue that the "xxx did not appear in this episode" is irrelevant aswell since the user can just look on the main character non-appearances page for that information. On an encyclopaedia such as this there is bound to be some crossover as we build the web, it's just a matter of limiting it so that it's not a carbon copy on another page. I don't think such a small note on an actor is such an issue. --| TrekFan Open a channel 05:01, March 2, 2011 (UTC) ::That reason, not knowing everything about the subject, is exactly why we make wikilanks and use a wiki system. You read an article, and it brings you to other articles to learn about their subjects, and so on. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:33, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :::Well, it's just my opinion on the matter. --| TrekFan Open a channel 07:42, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :Let's take a look at just how stupid the suggestion is that this info not be included. The 1st and 3rd examples of bg notes in this article state the following: :"Freelancer Ethan H. Calk sold this story on his very first pitch session to ''Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. He pitched numerous other ideas before finally landing his second sale – contributing to the story for the episode "Children of Time"." :"''Chalk had also used Nausicaans as villains, but these were rejected as not familiar enough. In response, he created the Romulan-Klingon intrigue plot." :For starters, the note about Calk's work on the series is written in the same format as the guest cast info, giving brief info about his other work on the series, yet – for some reason – it's seen as acceptable, has had no-one moaning about it (yet) and certainly hasn't been removed. One could argue, in the same way that some have argued for the senseless exclusion of guest cast info, that the third note be removed because it has info about the Nausicaans that could instead be found on their own page. However, this hasn't happened either, and no-one's raised a stink about it! These are just two examples of the wealth of info that could be seen as removable, if we were to accept the ridiculous tripe that the cast info be omitted. --Defiant 09:44, March 2, 2011 (UTC) Noting that it was the writer's first sale is relevant to the development of this episode- but the information after that part isn't. The Nausicaan information is also relevant to this episode(noting how the writer developed the episode) It is not relevant to this episode that Shearer later played an unrelated, different role. --31dot 09:51, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :Well, myself, TrekFan, and the users of tv.com disagree with you. You're yet to give any decently sensible arguments for the exclusion of the info, rather than just moaning your opinion on the matter. --Defiant 09:58, March 2, 2011 (UTC) I object to your tone, sir. I am not "moaning" any more than you are. You also have not responded to my last argument. It's not "sensible" to avoid loading down pages with unrelated content, when we have a system designed to avoid doing so? I'm also not sure why you keep bringing up "TV.com". This is not TV.com, this is a wiki.--31dot 10:00, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :::CONFLICT With regards to the Calk note, it is entirely relevant to mention his other episode if he only contributed two stories to the DS9 series. How can you mentioned one without the other? I would also like to contest the idea of not including this guest cast information. The episode article is primarily about what is seen on-screen and its development. Noting that Shearer went onto play other roles after this one is a tiny note that informs the reader - which is after all the purpose of MA - of that fact. If they want to go on and read into it further, they can then visit the actor's page and see his biography; it's not like we're copying his whole page word for word, we're talking about two lines of information. It's just a small note that informs the reader they have appeared in other episodes, therefore linking everything in together. To me, that's what MA is supposed to be about, is it not? Furthermore, if the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion feels it is relevant to include - and this is an official publication - why don't we? --| TrekFan Open a channel 10:05, March 2, 2011 (UTC) The Companion doesn't have hyperlinks that you can click for more information. :) --31dot 10:08, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :Obviously, I'm well aware of the fact that we are not tv.com and, actually, I didn't say I'm not moaning (we all are, so it seems!) ;) Even though I know tv.com is far different from a wiki, it's a good precedent for this matter and shows a considerable level of support for the idea of including the info. What I meant by the fact that we don't agree with you is that the guest cast info only becomes "unrelated content" that "loads down pages" if you subscribe to your belief system, which is not decently sensible. --Defiant 10:16, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :::I just fail to see how a couple of lines of text is bogging down an article that is about the episode itself, in which these people appeared. It's not as if we're talking about some "Joe Bloggs" of a background actor appearing in several episodes of DS9. These are Trek actors with multiple appearances. It's hardly worth arguing about yet does, in my opinion, add to the article in a positive way. --| TrekFan Open a channel 10:26, March 2, 2011 (UTC) (To Defiant, Edit conf)The "unrelation" begins when something is discussed that did not occur and has nothing to do with the content or production of this episode. It has nothing to do with this episode that Shearer later(or prior) played a different role in a different episode unrelated to this one. If you had evidence that he was specifically chosen for this episode due to a prior appearance, or was chosen for a future episode based on his appearance here, that's a different matter, but that's not what the comment claims. It only says that (to paraphrase) "he did this other work". That is actor information, not production information. Using your reasoning, the only articles on this site should be the episode articles.--31dot 10:27, March 2, 2011 (UTC) (Moved from "Votes") This is not the type of thing that is voted on by majority vote, content is arrived at by consensus.--31dot 10:28, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :::The votes are there to illustrate who is supportive of the inclusion and who is against. It makes it clear as to who is of which opinion and also shows where the majority lies. --| TrekFan Open a channel 10:35, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :@31dot: Of course I don't think we should just have episode articles here! We can use the performer articles to flesh out info about the actors, such as non-''Trek'' productions that they got involved with, etc., etc., just as happens currently. There's a major difference between the tiny notes we're suggesting here and the performer pages, and that's pretty obvious. As for the voting system, we're determining consensus via the vote. If you suggested another method of doing so, it would probably be more helpful than just your repeated complaints. --Defiant 10:43, March 2, 2011 (UTC) :::"Concensus" doesn't mean everyone agrees. It means "more than the majority" agrees. I.e. there is widespread support for an idea. --| TrekFan Open a channel 11:00, March 2, 2011 (UTC) ::::As an aside -- we are not tv.com. If you want tv.com, go there. Information not relevant to the episode at hand should not be on the episode page. What else a writer wrote, or whatever else a performer was in should not be there. ::::Also -- the material has now been reverted 3+ times. The latest being a re-addition by Defiant with the comment that it is "common sense". The page has now been protected for a day. ::::Finally, as noted above -- we do not "vote" on things here. We come to consensus. And consensus is not "majority rules." That's a vote. -- sulfur 11:03, March 2, 2011 (UTC) Votes Just to keep track of everyone's views in the hopes we can come to some sort of majority on this issue: :Vote Support for inclusion of guest cast info; Oppose against the inclusion. I suggest any comments/opinions remain in the above section. *'Support' inclusion of said information. --| TrekFan Open a channel 10:22, March 2, 2011 (UTC) *'Support' --Defiant 10:25, March 2, 2011 (UTC)